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We are most pleased and very happy to have a man who has such an extensive scientific

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background and one who is so interested and outspoken on the subject of unidentified flying

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objects in Dr. James McDonough.

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To quote from Time Magazine in their August 4, 1967 issue in which they had an editorial

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on the subject of unidentified flying objects, they say, I quote, James E. McDonald, a University

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of Arizona atmospheric physicist, studied the records of Project Blue Book, interviewed

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witnesses around the United States and in Australia.

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His conclusion places him farther out on the saucer's edge than any other US scientist.

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Thank you Dr. McDonough. I think that UFOs are the number one problem of world science.

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I'm afraid that the evidence points to no other acceptable hypotheses than the extraterrestrial.

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The amount of evidence is overwhelmingly real.

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Dr. McDonough, who at this time is senior physicist of the Institute of Atmospheric

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Physics and professor of the Department of Meteorology at the University of Arizona in

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Tucson.

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His principal research interests include atmospheric physics, particularly physics of clouds and

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precipitation.

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His educational background includes the following, a BA in chemistry from the University of Omaha,

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an MS in meteorology from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and a PhD degree in

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physics from Iowa State University.

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Some of his professional activities include a member of the National Science Foundation's

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advisory panel on weather modification and a member of the American Meteorological Society's

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Publication Commission.

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He's a very qualified man to speak on the subject of unidentified flying objects and

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is with this that we are most happy to present Dr. James McDonough, who will speak on UFOs,

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a case study in public misinformation.

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Thank you Mr. Roberts, Mr. Dix.

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I'm very pleased to be here and want to thank both the Record Courier for its sponsorship

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and the Goodyear UFO group for its sponsorship and particularly intended to one of the Record

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Courier staff, Carol Klapp, for getting this session going.

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I'm going to talk to you about the UFO problem, aiming at a particular point of view that

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I'll try to develop.

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The point of view implied in that title that it constitutes a case study in public misinformation.

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In my opinion, after 18 months now of essentially full-time study of the UFO problem, beginning

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in May of 1966, last year, continuing right on up to the present, from that study I have

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come to conclude that very far from being the nonsense problem that the UFO problem has

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been widely cracked up to be, it is instead a matter of the utmost scientific importance.

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And this immediately implies a credibility gap, one of enormous dimensions, misinformation,

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of really an unparalleled degree in nature.

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I know of no other situation in any period where the degree of misinformation has been

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quite as great as on the UFO problem.

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I say that with deliberation on the basis of a fairly good look at the problem.

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I've talked to witnesses in perhaps a couple hundred cases, something of that order.

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I've been at Wright Patterson down at Dayton several times, examined the Blue Book files,

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talked to the Blue Book officials up to the general staff level, scientists concerned

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with this.

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I've discussed the problem with the members of a number of the private investigatory groups

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and groups such as Goodyear and others here in Akron and some of the large ones in the

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country, notably NYCAP and Washington, D.C.

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I've had a look at the UFO situation in another country, Australia.

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I would like to look at it in many other countries.

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There appears to be a little doubt that the UFO problem is on a truly global scale and

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so I can qualify my statement and say that the problem is not only one, in my opinion,

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of enormous scientific importance, but of enormous international scientific importance.

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I won't go into details about the nature of how I got going on the problem.

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I've been a little curious about it for a long time and about a year and a half ago decided I'd take a closer look,

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namely last summer vacation.

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I thought I'd spend a short months and satisfy myself there.

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In fact, really wasn't anything to the problem.

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Just puzzled enough about it that I wanted to get that particular business out of the way.

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That's the way it went.

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But as soon as I had gotten up to write Patterson and examined the book files and talked with the people there who have present

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responsibility and past responsibility for it, talked to the chief scientific consultant and reviewed the NYCAP files in

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Washington. I realized that this problem had to take precedence over my own professional concerns.

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And I haven't done much on those fields of research that had mentioned that they seem a little distant to me.

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I've been so long away from the physics of clouds and precipitation that the snowflakes seem rather foreign to my concern.

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UFOs seem far more important.

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And perhaps the time away from my profession is some kind of a direct measure.

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I hope it is of my of my concern.

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I've talked to many people in Washington and will be down in Washington at the end of this week talking again to NASA,

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National Academy, National Aeronautics and Space Council people trying once again to suggest to them that present neglect of this

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problem must immediately be replaced by high level consideration.

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I don't expect to rock any boats, create any more ways down there.

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The end of this week that I have in the previous attempts, everybody knows it's a lot of nonsense.

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They just know it's a lot of nonsense. They just know there are a lot of crackbots.

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They just know that all these people reporting these alleged craft are seeing flimsy dogs and meteors and comets and the like.

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The the assemblations that the official agency that's had responsibility for the UFO problem have made here after year have made their dent indeed.

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The Air Force Assurances that there's nothing to it, that they have checked and found that it's a lot of nonsense and misinterpreted phenomena,

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that there is nothing defying explanation in terms of present day science and technology has been for good reason.

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I should say we're good reason accepted by all of us by Congress press, the scientific community and even as nearly as I can tell,

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foreign governments have been impressed by the Air Force Assurances.

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I say those Assurances are meaningless.

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The Air Force program since 1952, not so much before, but since 1952 has been marked by increasing incompetence, increasing superficiality and a more or less studied effort to play the whole UFO problem down.

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And I'll attempt to make some remarks here based on my examination problem on the apparent history of how that ever came about.

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Let me interject just so you don't lose track of the main point that I'm trying to get across to you.

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Interject there is my opinion that the Air Force is not trying to do the link us in any in any.

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I do not believe that the Air Force knows all about UFOs.

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Some people do. I don't. From all my conversations and all my look at the problem.

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I do not yet present, let's say I do not now believe and haven't at any time.

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I've been big into the problem suspected that the Air Force of CIA knows all about UFOs and is trying to keep it from you or me.

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I don't think they have a slightest idea or the slightest interest in UFOs as nearly as I can tell.

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I may be wrong. And there are facts that appear to conflict with that point of view.

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But if I have several hours, I would be able to give you my bottle to the majority of those facts.

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So I believe the Air Force has made a blunder of the dimensions of which are unprecedented.

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I don't believe the Air Force realizes that even now. Witness the number of the most recent pronouncements they've made even this summer.

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Late summer they have come out with the same old statements about their radar.

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See everything in space. How could it be? How could there be anything in our airspace?

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There was a two part issue in the official Air Force publication.

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The airman giving all the explanations once again.

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That is July and August issues of the Air Force publication.

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The airman I've seen no indications to date that the Air Force thinks there's anything but a bunch of nonsense.

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And I believe they are utterly and completely wrong in that conclusion.

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And I believe it's because of having really quite an incompetent person looking at the problem who have almost no knowledge of science.

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Yes, who through the Air Force channels at Secretary of Air Force Office of Information and Pentagon put out by a series of people not knowing what anybody else has put out a series of assurances that this problem is being looked at by both the best scientific talent in the Air Force and all that sort of thing.

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When all the time the examinations have been made by people who have almost no knowledge of frequently no knowledge of astronomy of meteorology of radar propagation physics.

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Almost no knowledge of aerodynamics and many other fields.

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And as a consequence coming out again and again with patently observed quote explanations that even untrained layman frequently laugh at.

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And scientists hardly pay attention to because of course they know it's a lot of a lot of nonsense.

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And this pattern has gone on.

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On the Air Force feels it's settled with a public relations burden.

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This is this appears to be the Air Force viewpoint that they have this burden that they can't get rid of keeping track of this nonsense problem.

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They have tried unsuccessfully to get rid of it.

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I know. And that is as far as the Air Force appears to have seen into this problem.

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That appears also to be true of the Russian Air Force, British Air Force, the Royal Australian Air Force, and so on down the line.

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Wait until the facts are out and think about that situation again.

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The facts I think are coming out fairly fast.

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How fast is I would like to see them. But they're coming up. Well, the problem is 20 years old in 1947.

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The burst of attention to UFO problems came upon us July 4th of 1947.

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There were sightings all over the United States.

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A nightcap member is preparing a book that will be out in about five or six months, reviewing just one month only just from the end of June to about the end of July.

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1947 has 800 sighting cases in that one period.

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I have been quite flabbergasted to go to the manuscript of that.

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And in order to get as I've done in other parts of the problem, to get my own first hand check on this, I have in the past month interviewed about 25 witnesses from that period.

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In fact, I was all day on the phone yesterday talking to people involved in one particular case in Oregon in July of 1947.

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And those are cases just as real as one that I was checking in midweek that occurred in Otsville, Pennsylvania in September 8th of this year.

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A fellow named George Taylor who runs the sob agency in Otsville was driving with his wife on the north side of that little town up on the Delaware River.

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He was out looking. This doesn't happen very often.

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He was looking for you at all because a local airport manager had mentioned that for three successive nights, an object that appeared to be disliked in form was hovering over a power station on the Delaware near Holland.

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New Jersey and George Taylor, with whom I spoke and whose account I heard of from a colleague in my physics department comes from the same town.

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I had gone up there and I'm sure enough at the time that it had been seen the previous three nights, 1145 PM.

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The object came over the Gilbert power station and he got a look at the thing with knockers.

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It was a disc with a dome on it.

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Paired to have something in the way of either luminous ports or windows or something.

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At least there were individual lights all around it hovered over the power station for about half an hour.

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Having come from the dirty side, it went north westward up towards Bethlehem, where he mentioned a number of people I've seen.

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You have. Well, I've just opposed those two.

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One that's a few weeks old and cases that are 20 years old and right down through those years case after case, which I have read about them over the years.

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Casually, I didn't know whether to believe or not.

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I believe everything I read by a very long shot and I'd read a few of your books.

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I believe these cases, if you can't go out and check them in the bubble when the Air Force issues you that they have checked them and found nothing to them.

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Just misinterpreted natural for them.

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Well, 18 months of reviewing those Air Force evaluations, explanations and assurances leave me really deeply distressed with what has happened, both as a citizen and as a scientist.

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At first, the Air Force now it's become quite clear from allowing the initial response.

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On the part of the Air Force, by the way, at that time, it was only the Army Air Force.

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The Air Force per se didn't come into existence until January of 48.

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In fact, the Air Force was just about seven days old when they officially set up the UFO project then called Project Sign.

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Project Sign went into Project Grudge and Project Grudge became the present blue book and reverse spanned the 20 years.

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That's a good phrase at that.

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The the sign investigations involved about 200 cases.

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And I have looked at the number of walls and I don't press on you that because I'm not.

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Time doesn't it's it's not entirely satisfactory to tackle this kind of a problem in this kind of a mechanism.

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This kind of a method. I'm just stating things to you without taking the six hours to back up each one of these states.

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I am passing on to you my reactions to the best of those.

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Those are very strong cases. Some of those cases in the late forties were most impressive.

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Your Rock Air Force base July, forty seven three different groups of Air Force personnel.

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So entirely unconventional.

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Just as an Air Force unidentified case to down to this day, three groups are unidentified.

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The spherical formed objects maneuvering over your Air Force base in July 4th of 1947.

158
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Hundreds of persons in Portland, Oregon, including a large number of law enforcement officers.

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And I've interviewed personally about a half a dozen of them saw formations of wingless objects maneuvering at high speeds over that part of Oregon.

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In Cincinnati in early July of forty seven hundred and fifty people at a baseball game were all looking up rather than the diamond as an object maneuvered overhead.

161
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A couple hundred people in people in Howler Lake, Idaho, I've interviewed some of the personnel involved in that case, saw all shaped wingless objects maneuvering.

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Now, these cases back in nineteen forty seven are significant for many points of view, notably with respect to the sometimes suggested hypothesis that these are probably rushed or more commonly America.

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And you do still encounter people with a little knowledge of the problem.

164
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Who suggest they it's definitely a mark of limited knowledge about the UFO problem.

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No one who has looked carefully at the problem gives a passing thought any longer to that possibility that there are hours or hours for many reasons.

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I've just cited one if they were American or Russian and they could do already in nineteen forty seven.

167
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The kind of things they were then doing and are still doing in the way of performance characteristics.

168
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Supersonic and apparently even the hypersonic speeds almost noninertial turns, climbs, hovering emotions,

169
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soundless hovering and a wide variety of other inexplicable things.

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Then technology in Russia or America at the end of World War Two was a very different thing from what anybody has ever heard about.

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And I don't know of a single scientist or engineer knowledgeable in these areas who gives that any food to thought at all.

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But it had to be considered in nineteen forty seven is a real possibility that there were Russians, Russian weapons and one wonders if the Russians weren't wondering the same thing.

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Well, a very significant thing in the history of the product of the problem occurred in nineteen fifty three.

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And that is the the convening of the Robertson panel and the it's necessary to spend a moment or two telling about that because the entire history of the UFO investigations really on a global scale because the world was watching the American Air Force investigation was derailed by something that happened then.

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The Robertson panel was convened five quite good scientists met for three or four days, looked at about two dozen cases and decided there was not much to it.

176
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Now, the difficulty is that the type of data that you have in the UFO problem is not the sort of thing that most scientists like to deal with.

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Scientists like me readings controlled measurement data and things that will go into equations if not into computers.

178
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And this is not the nature of this UFO problem right now.

179
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You are dealing with anecdotal data frequently from untrained people frequently from highly trained people.

180
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But there are more of them than the lab in the world and it appears to be pretty much randomly distributed.

181
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So the Robertson panel looked at the evidence, decided there was no reason to believe there was hostility involved in any way could not convince themselves that the objects were extraterrestrial despite the existence within the Air Force circles at that time.

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Of more than a few officers who were strongly inclined to the extra trust review already in 1952 as a result of the findings of the Robertson panel, those finding no hostility and non no indication they were extraterrestrial.

183
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It is recommended by the CIA that the Air Force then get this signal out of the channels that were being clogged by so many UFO reports.

184
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And having read the Robertson panel report in detail at Bright Patterson, I speak from somewhat unusual knowledge on that.

185
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I was given to it. Given given the Robertson panel report by Major Quentin Hill on the stake and the notion that he was free to be classified.

186
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He thought it came under the D.O.D. 12 year rule and I read it with almost boggling eyes.

187
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Next time I got up to write patterns and I asked for a Xerox copy of it, which he had prepared and it was almost given to me and still complete the straightforwardness on his part.

188
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Mine and Colonel suggested that since there was another agency involved in this, they better check when they asked the CIA, the CIA reclassified it and it is not yet been fully declassified.

189
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But I discussed even before the CIA reclassified it, I discussed this with many scientific colleagues and I state now to you that the CIA asked the Air Force to debunk the flying saucers.

190
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That's their phraseology, not mine. It's actually in the Robertson panel report debunked the flying saucers to decrease public interest.

191
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Now, when I read that before I put the thing in perspective, when I was reading the document, I thought, ah, this is it.

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There is a cover up. I don't think that's a cover up at all.

193
00:21:08,660 --> 00:21:34,460
Further reflection and examination. I could see by the time I looked over the whole picture at Bright-Cotterson that that five feet of shelving of just July 1952 UFO reports alone were if regarded as nonsense by a group of five scientists who had taken two or three days to look at by then several thousand cases that summarize for them and condense down to 25 cases.

194
00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:43,540
If they decided there's nothing to it, you might say, well, why should the CIA want to do anything to get that noise out of the signal?

195
00:21:43,540 --> 00:21:48,660
And they were concerned with the fact that so many intelligence personnel were tied up with UFO investigations.

196
00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:52,780
And so at that point, the problem changed quite abruptly.

197
00:21:52,780 --> 00:21:56,300
A regulation was drafted, which is still on the books.

198
00:21:56,300 --> 00:22:00,580
It's number changed about 10 or 11 months ago.

199
00:22:00,580 --> 00:22:03,940
For years, it was known as Air Force Regulation 200 dash two.

200
00:22:03,940 --> 00:22:12,060
It's anathema to all UFO investigators because they know the dire effect had it.

201
00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:30,420
Imposed penalties of $10,000 fine or 10 years in prison on anyone at air base level who disclosed any information on an unidentified and the stipulation of Air Force Regulation 200 dash two is the percentage of unidentified shall be reduced to a minimum.

202
00:22:30,940 --> 00:22:36,580
And you indeed see the percentage reduced to a minimum.

203
00:22:36,580 --> 00:22:39,860
It was about 20% back in 1952.

204
00:22:39,860 --> 00:22:47,140
And it's now about 2% in there have been years when Mike Patterson has been proud to announce it's been six or seven tenths of a percent.

205
00:22:47,140 --> 00:23:00,500
But how do that by taking the most elaborately reported cases and calling stars or birds or balloons with essentially no regard to scientific considerations in these cases?

206
00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:11,540
For example, the case that got me up on my hind legs and speaking out was the Portage County, Ohio case of April 17th, 1966.

207
00:23:11,540 --> 00:23:23,620
A case that occurred not very many tens of miles from here, which was probably as thoroughly investigated by an ICAP officials as any case on record.

208
00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:36,700
I am most struck by the the contrast between the original four minutes telephone call, which would have been the Air Force investigation had the record courier.

209
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:47,380
As a matter of fact, the peculiar involvement was everyone here. The record courier not pressed for investigation and defined by certain steps gotten Congress and Stanton to demand some further investigation.

210
00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:50,860
It would have been a four minute investment phone call on the part of the Air Force.

211
00:23:50,860 --> 00:24:07,020
A hundred and twenty five page report put out by NICAP, the Washington private group, which the Air Force dams as a bunch of paranoid crackpots, but which in fact has done over and over a year after year, a vastly superior job to the United States Air Force on a shoestring basis.

212
00:24:07,020 --> 00:24:09,860
Ten thousand members of five dollars a year and so on.

213
00:24:09,860 --> 00:24:16,500
And I have said the same thing I just said to Air Force General Air Force scientists.

214
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:28,380
So I don't hesitate to say it now. This case of April 17th, 66, the beautiful illustration of how the the percentage of unidentified shall be reduced to a minimum.

215
00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:39,740
You may know the case officers of the Portage County Sheriff's Office were investigating an abandoned car came upon the car.

216
00:24:39,740 --> 00:24:46,500
And while they were checking it, an object came over some trees, illuminated them, called the desk for instructions were told to follow it.

217
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:52,460
And following through those instructions, they ended up going out of the state of Ohio and Pennsylvania.

218
00:24:52,780 --> 00:24:59,420
Occupied something of the order of 80 minutes and they went about 75 miles times reaching 100 miles an hour.

219
00:24:59,420 --> 00:25:04,740
I've interviewed three of the police officers, by the way, and spent a great deal of time looking into this case.

220
00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:14,500
This one was explained in the first instance in the second instance and at present by a project blue book as Echo satellite and Venus and the following secrets.

221
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:20,780
The officer saw satellite go overhead, transferred their attention to Venus, which was rising in the east and followed Venus.

222
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:30,980
These men wore out a pair of tires or got two other police officers involved in the in the chase.

223
00:25:30,980 --> 00:25:38,220
Times the object was only a few hundred feet above them and they estimated to be for your 50 feet in diameter.

224
00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:45,980
One of the officers Wayne Houston, a police officer in East Palestine, saw the he heard the transmission.

225
00:25:45,980 --> 00:25:47,940
I may be telling you all about what you know.

226
00:25:47,980 --> 00:25:54,980
It's a very significant case. He heard the he heard the transmissions of the first car that were coming down 14.

227
00:25:54,980 --> 00:26:01,100
He realized that they are far away. He went out and parked and sure enough, down the highway came a high speed car.

228
00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:05,540
It's a past had two officers in it. Above it was an unidentified fly on.

229
00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:16,060
It was a luminous object which looked vaguely like an ice cream cone upside down and the this officer sped up and caught up with them.

230
00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:23,020
There were two patrol cars and going down and they passed out of Ohio into Pennsylvania and there are many more parts of the problem.

231
00:26:23,020 --> 00:26:26,540
And this is satellite echo and Venus.

232
00:26:26,540 --> 00:26:44,740
When I heard about this and talked to the blue officer of a great length and wrote a long memorandum to the car and charge down there and got an agreement at one stage of the game that they were changed and then found a month later that they had set by your congressman.

233
00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:46,900
I think that's true of some of you.

234
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:48,100
I'm worried by your congressman.

235
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:53,540
Stanton assurances that a re investigation to part of the Air Force had confirmed the original explanation.

236
00:26:53,540 --> 00:27:00,620
That's when I started speaking up because I thought there might have been some hope in the summer of 66 when I was up at Wright Patterson.

237
00:27:00,620 --> 00:27:14,700
But my hope has not been re kindled since the Portage County case finally was explained what's in for all as it was at the start as a confusion over satellite echo.

238
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:17,500
And planet Venus unbelievable.

239
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:23,180
You should hear the transcript of the interrogation by the Blue Book officer.

240
00:27:23,180 --> 00:27:25,260
You really hear it unbelievable.

241
00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:26,940
The United States Air Force.

242
00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:43,260
Well, this is why when you when you see these cases, when you look at examples like Red Bluff, California, where two California Highway Patrolmen were as one of them put it to me in an interview with an easy pistol range of the object, which was about the size of an aircraft.

243
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:48,180
No wings and six foot lights on it and was interfering with radio transmission.

244
00:27:48,180 --> 00:27:51,580
So they could not call back to the dispatchers for more cars.

245
00:27:51,580 --> 00:27:55,820
And all they had was 44 pistols with our rehearsing shells.

246
00:27:55,820 --> 00:28:00,260
And then the officer cars and said they had the guns out and we're going to shoot.

247
00:28:00,260 --> 00:28:08,220
There was nothing else to do. And this is explained as Al Debaran and Capella twinkling and an inversion.

248
00:28:08,260 --> 00:28:10,820
And you look at the radio sound ascent as I have.

249
00:28:10,820 --> 00:28:13,300
There was no inversion in the first place.

250
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:17,860
You look at the star charts and the stars weren't even in the sky.

251
00:28:17,860 --> 00:28:25,900
Now, if that was the only time that it happened, it would not be so surprising, distressing, but it's happened in one way or another over and over again.

252
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:34,900
In August of sixty five, a sheriff's cars all over the Midwest were sighting and reporting on an flight flying objects out of 50 cars in the Minneapolis area.

253
00:28:34,940 --> 00:28:41,580
Everyone reported someone identified aerial objects in the night of August second sixty five.

254
00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:43,980
This too was explained in terms of stars.

255
00:28:43,980 --> 00:28:51,900
It was a little juice and a Rigel and a planetary director pointed out those weren't in the sky either.

256
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:58,900
And the odd explanation was the Blue Book officer said he meant Wyoming, not Oklahoma.

257
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:02,940
Well, you know what he is trying to be.

258
00:29:02,980 --> 00:29:10,140
And cases involving mirages and sundaugas and the most implausible arguments.

259
00:29:10,140 --> 00:29:18,180
A private pilot in in Salt Lake City, whom I've interviewed a couple occasions, was taking off.

260
00:29:18,180 --> 00:29:20,420
He saw the object. First, he thought it was an aircraft.

261
00:29:20,420 --> 00:29:24,940
But as he got out of the pattern and looked at it again, it flashed and he tried to close with it.

262
00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:27,340
It was a disk metallic looking disk.

263
00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:32,900
Seven people back at the Utah Central Airport were looking at it with binoculars confirmed.

264
00:29:33,020 --> 00:29:38,780
Waldo J. Harris's description. It abruptly rose about a thousand feet just like that.

265
00:29:38,780 --> 00:29:41,300
His hair is trying to close. He tried to close again.

266
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:42,700
It shot off about 10 miles.

267
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:49,460
He saw it direct line of sight along the horizon scene against the distant mountain, Mount Nebo.

268
00:29:49,460 --> 00:29:54,100
And he tried again, never got even close to it because it shot off at very high speed at a high angle.

269
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:57,380
Forty five degree climb and disappeared. This was noon.

270
00:29:57,380 --> 00:30:00,380
He was dead straight up and down noon as he was taking off.

271
00:30:00,380 --> 00:30:06,820
This was explained first as Venus. Now, Venus is very hard to see in the sky.

272
00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:10,620
This is 12 o'clock. You can see Venus, as some of you must know.

273
00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:14,060
If you know exactly where to look, you can make out Venus in the daytime.

274
00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:21,180
But here was a situation where the pilot's position changed repeatedly, where people on the ground were seeing it with no difficulty.

275
00:30:21,180 --> 00:30:26,020
And above all, where at one stage he saw it on the horizontal with a mountain behind it.

276
00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:32,940
And when the Pentagon announcement got to Salt Lake, Waldo Harris stated he feared for the safety of our nation.

277
00:30:32,940 --> 00:30:39,580
If there are people down the Pentagon, you can get Venus between him and Mount Nebo.

278
00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:42,180
Well, this is no longer the explanation.

279
00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:44,460
Explanations change in the book files.

280
00:30:44,460 --> 00:30:51,820
And this is one of the difficulties that makes it very awkward for the serious investigator because it's hard to keep up with a changing investigation.

281
00:30:51,820 --> 00:30:55,340
Some of them change within a week or two. But this this has changed since then.

282
00:30:55,340 --> 00:31:01,700
It is now a sun dog. A sun dog is a refraction phenomenon caused by tabular ice crystals.

283
00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:09,260
You got a pair of sun dogs on each side of the sun. They have to be essentially within a less than a degree at the same angular elevation as the sun.

284
00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:13,820
It is no strain to figure out where the sun was at noon on October 2nd, 1961.

285
00:31:13,820 --> 00:31:19,180
It was 40 degrees above the horizon. Again, this fellow was looking south, southeast, dead level.

286
00:31:19,180 --> 00:31:22,500
The object around shot out at high speed. A sun dog.

287
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:29,380
Well, you I could speak a great length about those cases, but this is the 20 years of misinformation.

288
00:31:29,380 --> 00:31:36,740
I'm trying to encapsulate here and there in some examples along with my rather strong combinations of what has happened.

289
00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:45,140
My combinations come first as a scientist because here, Perry, has been a problem which we've all been been thrown off.

290
00:31:45,180 --> 00:31:50,180
The center that we've been put off by assurance that it was being examined and it wasn't.

291
00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:55,420
And it appears to be something of outstanding importance, whatever it is.

292
00:31:55,420 --> 00:31:58,500
And I'll turn to my thoughts on that very shortly.

293
00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:07,380
So the Air Force has, I think this led us all these years and I do not subscribe to say it again to the conspiracy hypothesis.

294
00:32:07,380 --> 00:32:08,220
Many do.

295
00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:09,500
I cap.

296
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:13,300
My cap's official position is that there must be a high level cover.

297
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:15,700
And I understand.

298
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:20,380
I understand their position. I have spent a great deal of time talking over with them.

299
00:32:20,380 --> 00:32:32,780
The kinds of incidents like somewhat like the Portage County case that have led them to think that there's a cover up frequently air based level people do things that look as if it's part of the cover up.

300
00:32:32,860 --> 00:32:39,860
If you look at all these together, you get the impression that there is something going on here that they don't want the public to know about.

301
00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:45,500
I don't think that's the case. It's generally known in the Air Force that the policies, the Air Force doesn't believe in these.

302
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:51,580
It's known by many, even if not every officer, that there is this ten thousand dollar fine tenure prisonment clause.

303
00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:55,940
And that it deters some from making strong statements.

304
00:32:55,940 --> 00:33:11,020
But in general, it is just too tempting when you're in a military and I've been in it to respond to the the uncertain situation where your facility, your unit is involved by saying nothing at all.

305
00:33:11,020 --> 00:33:18,460
And maybe it'll go away. And when somebody scrambles jets to follow you, they don't close with it and nothing happens.

306
00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:23,940
The town is not going up. The best thing for the colonel to do is to say nothing at all to anybody.

307
00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:30,060
And so you get these cases one after another where odd things have happened and it looks like a high level conspiracy.

308
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:37,540
But I have just talked to too many people in Washington and seen too much of this sort of thing in other contexts.

309
00:33:37,540 --> 00:33:47,980
And I have really too, too higher regard for many of the people that have had been involved in this to believe the following.

310
00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:53,740
I cannot believe yet. I'm really sure you are mine and all of us were facts.

311
00:33:53,860 --> 00:34:09,900
I don't believe, however, that it's conceivable that any security agents, agency people or military people could confirm the possibility of something like extra trashfield surveillance with the response.

312
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:16,180
Let's keep it quiet. I don't believe that's quite conceivable.

313
00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:20,380
I've argued this in closed sessions with colleagues.

314
00:34:20,380 --> 00:34:35,020
Some of my colleagues are quite ready to believe that in terms of other things that have happened that it is conceivable that security agencies would do this for possible technological gain of say the United States Air Force.

315
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:39,540
I doubt that would be the nature of the response.

316
00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:44,340
And so I don't see any other explanation to make sense of the conspiracy hypothesis.

317
00:34:44,340 --> 00:34:48,260
My cap has suggested that it's panic prevention, fairer panic.

318
00:34:48,260 --> 00:34:55,740
And they've said that in many ways. I cannot believe that is the motive because if security agencies are afraid, you were going to panic.

319
00:34:55,740 --> 00:35:00,900
Sometimes the more obvious conclusion is that the Air Force is going to panic, not the public.

320
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:14,260
If they felt you were going to panic, I think they would be doing something about it to carry on some kind of transition to public disclosure that there was something going on here that nobody understands.

321
00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:18,620
I think they don't understand it and don't care much about it and believe it's sincerely.

322
00:35:18,620 --> 00:35:26,820
It's a lot of nonsense. And when you finally learn, as I think you all will in due time, the unbelievable.

323
00:35:27,180 --> 00:35:29,780
I didn't say that a year and a half ago, but I sure say it now.

324
00:35:29,780 --> 00:35:41,340
Unbelievable volume of highly credible reports of utterly unconventional craft like machine like objects that are maneuvering in the global airspace.

325
00:35:41,340 --> 00:35:45,180
You are going to wonder what happened to the American Air Force.

326
00:35:45,180 --> 00:35:48,060
And you're at the same breath. You're going to wonder how did the Russians miss that?

327
00:35:48,060 --> 00:35:51,060
How did the Chinese miss this? How did the RCF miss it?

328
00:35:52,060 --> 00:36:00,820
Well, I've been in Australia and I've seen how the RWAF, they do talk in terms of supersonic pelicans and refractive effects of the atmosphere.

329
00:36:00,820 --> 00:36:10,420
And in the same unknowledgeable, incompetent way that has marked the American Air Force investigation of this since about 1952.

330
00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:21,020
Mind you, I'm trying to get across the fact that the CIA structures and the Robertson panel report marked nearly a step function change in the whole.

331
00:36:21,620 --> 00:36:32,500
Problem before that, when you look at the case files and I have about half a dozen, some of them are a half inch thick investigations back in forty nine and fifty a half inch thick.

332
00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:43,660
They were looking at this at that time. And when you then read a loop out and even mental and some of the accountators in the problem who were around and involved in that time,

333
00:36:43,660 --> 00:36:49,820
when you read that there were officers who thought they were extra trestle in forty nine and fifty and look at some of the other evidence.

334
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:53,740
It's very understandable why there were officers who were so inclined in 1952.

335
00:36:53,740 --> 00:37:01,540
But since that time, it's been going downhill steadily and the problem has been almost lost from sight.

336
00:37:01,540 --> 00:37:09,140
Well, who where else can we lodge responsibility if the situation I'm describing is as I've painted.

337
00:37:09,140 --> 00:37:13,140
If anything like this is really happening, where is it entirely our force responsibility?

338
00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:18,180
Where does science stand in all this? Where does the press stand in all this?

339
00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:23,980
Where does commerce where? Where do we have to look for the dynamics of the situation like that?

340
00:37:23,980 --> 00:37:32,420
How about science? Well, I looked at this problem with, I suppose, more than average interest among the scientific community for eight or ten years.

341
00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:42,340
And I investigated perhaps eighty cases and never found one that exactly overwhelmed me in ten years of investigation.

342
00:37:42,340 --> 00:37:56,500
A few really puzzled me, but I had no notion, not the slightest notion that those were those best cases were only representative of thousands that were being reported to the Air Force and other parts of the country.

343
00:37:56,500 --> 00:38:03,300
I had no notion of that. So I went on, but I read in newspapers and again and again, the assurances came out.

344
00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:07,540
And I don't think my reaction to that is very different from most scientists.

345
00:38:07,540 --> 00:38:17,860
When Edward Keller, certainly a far more competent scientist than I, is asked to meet the press, as he was last spring in the 66th wave of sightings around Michigan and so on,

346
00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:21,740
what he thought about the flying saucer problem. He said, well, people have a need for miracles.

347
00:38:21,740 --> 00:38:26,740
And in the scientific age, what's more natural than scientific miracles? I.e. spaceships.

348
00:38:26,740 --> 00:38:30,420
Well, Edward Keller has been reading the papers, too.

349
00:38:30,460 --> 00:38:39,980
Edward Keller has not investigated UFO cases nor have practically any of the elder statement that have so often made similar statements.

350
00:38:39,980 --> 00:38:46,620
There are really only two scientists who've had any look at the problem, Donald Menzel at Harvard and Donald Allen Heineck at Northwestern.

351
00:38:46,620 --> 00:39:00,380
And if you have read any of Menzel's statements on the problem or his two books, as I have in great detail, you may be just as unable as I am to understand how a professor of astronomy at a rather good school.

352
00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:11,420
Like Harvard could make so many errors in fundamental optics, astronomy and physics as Mark is astonishing book, particularly the 1963 book.

353
00:39:11,420 --> 00:39:15,140
Well, most of the science paid no attention to it because they were assured that there was nothing to it.

354
00:39:15,140 --> 00:39:17,940
And I think that's probably understandable.

355
00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:25,540
Everybody's busy and why study a problem that the Air Force says is a lot of nonsense, particularly when the Air Force says they have the best people on.

356
00:39:25,540 --> 00:39:34,900
Well, they didn't have the best people on, for instance, in the case of radar sightings of which there are quite a few and many more documented before 1952.

357
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:44,260
Then after there's a peculiar decrease in the number of military radar sightings known after Air Force regulation 200 dash two came out.

358
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:49,500
But I asked the the outstanding Air Force radar expert.

359
00:39:49,540 --> 00:39:55,740
In this case, I use the often ill used word, quite deliberately.

360
00:39:55,740 --> 00:40:05,260
I asked Dave Atlas, Dr. Atlas of Air Force Cambridge Research, if he had ever by the Air Force been called in on any of the many radar track.

361
00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:06,780
You have all cases.

362
00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:07,900
He said he certainly hadn't.

363
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:13,540
And he was astounded to realize I was wasting any of my time on such a such a nonsense problem as that.

364
00:40:13,540 --> 00:40:18,020
His fellow had been in the Air Force Cambridge Labs for many years, a really outstanding sex.

365
00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:22,180
Never once involved in any of these American cases.

366
00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:26,380
So the scientists, I believe, had been put off by these kind of shirts.

367
00:40:26,380 --> 00:40:28,300
Well, how about Congress?

368
00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:31,420
Congress has lots of problems, too.

369
00:40:31,420 --> 00:40:33,340
Congress could have held an investigation.

370
00:40:33,340 --> 00:40:36,100
And I camp has been pressing year after year for investigations.

371
00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:39,020
Almost had one about 1961 or two.

372
00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:42,980
And I get called off. There was an investigation a year ago, spring.

373
00:40:42,980 --> 00:40:49,500
And it is the epitome of the phony congressional investigation.

374
00:40:49,500 --> 00:41:05,460
It was held only because the congressional representatives from Michigan were oppressed by their constituents after the Dexter, Michigan case of March and Hillsdale case of March 24th of 66 to get some answers to these problems.

375
00:41:05,460 --> 00:41:07,500
And Gerald Ford demanded an investigation.

376
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:15,180
It was held not by a science oriented committee, but by the Mendel River's committee, the House Armed Services Committee.

377
00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:21,740
And who did they get to tell the Congress and hence the public all about the dubious controversy?

378
00:41:21,740 --> 00:41:23,660
State status of UFO problem.

379
00:41:23,660 --> 00:41:28,580
They had Alan Haynick, the chief scientific consultant for 18 years on Project Blue Book.

380
00:41:28,580 --> 00:41:34,220
They had Major Quintanilla, the chief of Blue Book officer, and they had Air Force Secretary Brown.

381
00:41:34,260 --> 00:41:38,820
And they were told that everything was in good hands and no no no problems.

382
00:41:38,820 --> 00:41:40,820
And nothing more came of that.

383
00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:46,780
Well, is Congress to blame for that a little bit because Congress up to be when it gets a it has a chance to ask questions.

384
00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:48,820
It ought to ask them a little more pointably.

385
00:41:48,820 --> 00:42:01,260
But again, Congress can't easily go out and check these cases when your Congressman Stanton became a little bit concerned, as I presume he was about the Portage County case of April 66.

386
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:03,700
He go out and start doing the interviewing himself.

387
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:08,740
Well, I suppose if you know how busy a Congressman is, you wouldn't make too much of a claim that he should have.

388
00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:16,060
Nevertheless, Congress might have done more had they had any notion from any sources that there was any problem.

389
00:42:16,060 --> 00:42:21,140
The scientists weren't taking it seriously because of the assurances and that brings us around to the press.

390
00:42:21,140 --> 00:42:22,900
What about the press?

391
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:27,580
There are there have been charges made that the press has befalled on its obligations.

392
00:42:27,580 --> 00:42:31,820
And I think the press might again have done much more than it did.

393
00:42:31,820 --> 00:42:41,500
The number of instances of a follow on investigation, pressing for answers that would parallel what the record courier.

394
00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:52,900
I'm not trying to particularly call me a favor here by remarking about the record courier, but it's it's a good rare example, a very rare example of what should have been done again and again.

395
00:42:52,900 --> 00:43:02,900
When they kept pressing and getting back at some of the witnesses and pressing for a force investigation of that case, they got a little more done and have been done in any cases.

396
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:10,100
When the Houston Tribune became concerned last January, or the way of sightings down there, they were doing what they should have done.

397
00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:16,220
And here and there. And once in a while, editors and press representatives have asked questions.

398
00:43:16,220 --> 00:43:24,500
Is the Air Force really investigating this? Isn't the Air Force being a little unreasonable about such and such investigation?

399
00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:31,340
But by and large, the American press has not had a synoptic view of this problem.

400
00:43:31,340 --> 00:43:44,460
And that comes back to the way the press really operates. Very few newspapers have the resources, things like the Times may, but the record courier or the Arizona Star or the law here does not have the

401
00:43:44,460 --> 00:43:51,300
rectorial resources to send the man out day after day, following up the UFO case.

402
00:43:51,300 --> 00:44:01,380
And hence the typical half life of about one to two days of press interest in a particular case is simply understandable in a way that press by and large goes at things.

403
00:44:01,380 --> 00:44:08,700
They have not gotten an overall view across to the papers and to the people of the country.

404
00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:18,620
So you have a situation where people in Arizona have almost no knowledge about what's going on in Ohio and the people in Ohio have no way of knowing about a very exciting

405
00:44:18,620 --> 00:44:25,100
occuring in Tucson on August 19th. And just in the hours I've been here, I've learned several by word of mouth that I never heard about them.

406
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:35,780
Tucson, when you look at press clipping service, as I have a chance to do again through the good offices of my cap, you are abusing lots of strong words.

407
00:44:36,660 --> 00:44:41,740
It's dangerous in communicating with anyone to keep on using strong words.

408
00:44:41,740 --> 00:44:44,820
It's a problem that just brings out strong words.

409
00:44:44,820 --> 00:44:54,700
The it is it is hard to believe the number of UFO reports that are getting to local papers all over the country, never getting on the wires.

410
00:44:54,700 --> 00:45:00,140
So I was saying that they're so getting on the wires because again, wire editors know it's a lot of nonsense.

411
00:45:00,140 --> 00:45:05,340
The things that do frequently get on the wire are the cases where there's been a crackpot or cultist involved.

412
00:45:05,420 --> 00:45:08,700
Or something really strange that that always peaks.

413
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:12,180
And again, it's human interest. One understands this sort of thing.

414
00:45:12,180 --> 00:45:18,900
It's more fun to write about somebody who says the UFOs are bringing a salutation message from Viz.

415
00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:23,300
They're here to save us. And I've been on a ride and the flying saucer went to Mars.

416
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:30,740
That sort of story is more fun to write. It's easier to write that story than to take an inexplicable phenomenon and record it and have no answer.

417
00:45:30,780 --> 00:45:32,100
It's just unsatisfactory.

418
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:40,620
My journalist upon view. And so all this has led to to unawareness on the part of the public misinformation or zero information.

419
00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:46,980
We are collectively quite uninformed through normal press channels about foreign sites.

420
00:45:46,980 --> 00:45:50,940
In general, American papers carry very little domestic news of foreign countries.

421
00:45:50,940 --> 00:45:53,100
When it comes to UFO sightings or why carry in.

422
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:58,780
We have enough nuts in America to report. Let's not report the nuts from South America or from Australia.

423
00:45:58,820 --> 00:46:02,980
So I have been to Australia and look at some of the nuts and they are not nuts at all.

424
00:46:02,980 --> 00:46:06,460
They are perfectly straightforward people who do not know what they saw.

425
00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:08,580
But this is what they saw and so on.

426
00:46:08,580 --> 00:46:16,060
For instance, a very interesting one of I checked 80 cases in Australia when I was down there in midsummer.

427
00:46:16,060 --> 00:46:27,900
Anglican clergyman and his wife looking out the rectory window, mind you, of the his his pastored when a large cigar shaped object came out of a rain cloud.

428
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:30,940
He thought it first was an aircraft crashing.

429
00:46:30,940 --> 00:46:45,900
He and his wife were watching it at sunset suddenly from out of a storm, which is often a distance five small dislike objects came and took formation around the cigar shaped objects, went into object, went into various positions and finally went all at one end.

430
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:50,580
And the whole works slid back into the cloud and disappeared.

431
00:46:50,620 --> 00:46:58,620
Well, this is explained by the wrath as a refracted and distorted image of the moon caused by the cloud.

432
00:46:58,620 --> 00:47:03,860
And I went to the area in Tasmania, talked to Reverend Lionel Browning about this case.

433
00:47:03,860 --> 00:47:11,660
Look carefully at the pope sheets. There was a five thousand foot mountain between Reverend Browning's place and the distant eastern horizon.

434
00:47:11,660 --> 00:47:15,700
And there was a complete curtain of rain surrounding about 90 degrees of asthma.

435
00:47:15,740 --> 00:47:19,020
It could possibly have seen the moon through all of this.

436
00:47:19,020 --> 00:47:22,780
And this sort of explanation is going on.

437
00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:27,380
Well, was that reported in the American papers? Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge.

438
00:47:27,380 --> 00:47:30,580
So when I read about it in a UFO report, I ignored it.

439
00:47:30,580 --> 00:47:35,780
I don't know. Browning, I don't even know if there is a Reverend Browning at eight thousand miles away.

440
00:47:35,780 --> 00:47:40,380
Why believe a story that you read in a UFO book?

441
00:47:40,380 --> 00:47:49,180
You don't know what to believe. Channels of information are very seriously jeopardized in cases like this.

442
00:47:49,180 --> 00:47:57,420
Well, I've suggested I can't really see that the primary blame can be put on science, Congress, press.

443
00:47:57,420 --> 00:48:04,500
Each of them might have done differently. I'm afraid the blame lies very, very strongly on the official

444
00:48:04,540 --> 00:48:13,060
investigatory group in the American Air Force and the same with the British and all the other organizations.

445
00:48:13,060 --> 00:48:20,660
But I think that because we have put so much money into it over the years and had an official program like no other nation has had,

446
00:48:20,660 --> 00:48:30,100
that it is probably quite as Jacques Vellet, a French investigator, told me that when they went to the French government

447
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:34,380
and asked for support for an investigation, the French government responded.

448
00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:42,740
Why spend good French money when the United States Air Force, with all its cash, has been looking at this thing for years and shown that there's nothing to it.

449
00:48:42,740 --> 00:48:47,980
I think that's had its influence around the world and indeed a baleful influence.

450
00:48:47,980 --> 00:48:53,260
It is. Well, what could be the actual nature of the subject that I'm talking about?

451
00:48:53,260 --> 00:49:05,580
And near the end of my remarks, and it was not my main point to talk to you about so much the substance of the UFO problem as this matter of misinformation.

452
00:49:05,580 --> 00:49:15,220
I've been trying to drive home that viewpoint and backing it up here and there with some examples, but not trying to mainly discuss the scientific aspects.

453
00:49:15,220 --> 00:49:23,220
I've done that with many other scientific groups. In fact, I'm on my way east to talk at MIT and Westinghouse labs and Air Force Cambridge labs and Sony Observatory.

454
00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:29,260
And I'm going out of Washington. That's the problem talking with those books. What could it be?

455
00:49:29,260 --> 00:49:38,780
A lot of hypotheses I've remarked on some of them already. But let me just wind up quickly by going to what I think is the heart of the matter.

456
00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:50,940
It's pretty hard to square the UFO facts that you find by digging into the problem with any hypothesis,

457
00:49:50,980 --> 00:50:02,860
except the extraterrestrial hypothesis, practically all of the other psychological hoax, meteorological astronomical, just do not set the the incredibly reported cases.

458
00:50:02,860 --> 00:50:19,380
There's too much evidence now. And the alternative that I see to the hypothesis, but mind you, I call it an hypothesis and not just for we've learned academic pussy footing because what an incredible hypothesis that is.

459
00:50:19,820 --> 00:50:26,340
It's not original. Me, and I kept saying it. A lot of people in the audience were saying it long before I had very much about the UFO problem.

460
00:50:26,340 --> 00:50:33,540
It's an hypothesis to be compared with other alternatives and to be thrown out if something better comes along.

461
00:50:33,540 --> 00:50:49,340
It's well to put it that way in science until you have pretty strong evidence because you get married to a theory and you find yourself no longer looking quite so candidly at all the facts as if you keep telling yourself hypothesis, hypothesis, hypothesis.

462
00:50:49,740 --> 00:50:53,100
That hypothesis, these may be probes from some extra stress.

463
00:50:53,100 --> 00:50:56,060
Of course, is in my opinion the most satisfactory one.

464
00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:01,180
Now, it is very improbable on our priori grounds.

465
00:51:01,180 --> 00:51:02,100
There are all kinds of them.

466
00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:14,740
If you read last week's science, you saw an analysis by a scientist who obviously has very limited knowledge of the UFO problem, but who rehashed all the thoughts that everybody who's looked at the problem carefully knows all about.

467
00:51:15,060 --> 00:51:24,900
Namely, there's no darn way to solve the propulsion problem to get them from extra solar sources here and they aren't likely to come from within the solar system.

468
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:30,540
Therefore, they can't exist. This is science lead article last week. We can't explain it. They can't exist.

469
00:51:30,540 --> 00:51:37,340
Now, you would think that that kind of an argument in 1960s would not be made by an experienced scientist, but it is.

470
00:51:37,340 --> 00:51:40,660
I run this all the time among my colleagues and elsewhere.

471
00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:49,140
It's as if Charles Goodyear said back in the 1830s when he was trying to figure out a better way to make a goulash and raincoat.

472
00:51:49,140 --> 00:51:56,700
Since there's no way to make rubber survive in all seasons, it can't be done and just throw in the hat.

473
00:51:56,700 --> 00:52:09,460
Well, if he had had to explain, suppose he had to give a full explanation in scientific terms, an adequate and correct scientific explanation for how he would vulcanize the rubber.

474
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:14,860
Imagine his embarrassment in 1830. Imagine the embarrassment of some of the organic chemistry.

475
00:52:14,860 --> 00:52:19,380
If you put it to him right now, how does the sulfur across linking process work?

476
00:52:19,380 --> 00:52:29,020
We don't know in 1967, but years and years of rubber technology are behind us and people like Ed Roberts are busy selling the products and we're driving and flying on them all the time.

477
00:52:29,020 --> 00:52:37,500
That kind of argument that because we can't explain it, it doesn't exist as a soft, morric argument of the water.

478
00:52:37,540 --> 00:52:42,340
Markowitz in this same article suggested that he rebutted Alan Heineck's comments.

479
00:52:42,340 --> 00:52:44,580
And here is a case where I sighed with Alan Heineck.

480
00:52:44,580 --> 00:52:48,940
I'm in general a bit distressed with Alan Heineck's 18-year contribution to the problem.

481
00:52:48,940 --> 00:52:56,100
But when in his science article, he said that he answered a frequently thrown up objection.

482
00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:57,700
Why haven't you contacted us?

483
00:52:57,700 --> 00:52:59,580
Well, of course, I don't know why they haven't.

484
00:52:59,580 --> 00:53:01,940
They will you all skip over the pronoun.

485
00:53:01,940 --> 00:53:03,620
Why they haven't contacted me.

486
00:53:04,060 --> 00:53:05,860
It was Alan Heineck or anybody else.

487
00:53:05,860 --> 00:53:09,340
But he made the reasonable suggestion that it's like this.

488
00:53:09,340 --> 00:53:13,980
If we encountered a new species of kangaroo in the backlands of Australia,

489
00:53:13,980 --> 00:53:16,780
would we begin by trying to communicate with it?

490
00:53:16,780 --> 00:53:18,940
And Markowitz is rebuttal of that.

491
00:53:18,940 --> 00:53:21,820
Well, that's absurd when kangaroos are very different from us.

492
00:53:21,820 --> 00:53:26,980
But when we encounter primitive human species, we always attempted to get into communication with them.

493
00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:28,180
Well, indeed we did.

494
00:53:28,180 --> 00:53:33,020
But how does Markowitz know that we are not to extraterrestrial civilization?

495
00:53:33,060 --> 00:53:35,140
Well, I don't know much as the kangaroos are to us.

496
00:53:35,140 --> 00:53:36,140
One doesn't know.

497
00:53:36,140 --> 00:53:41,100
You see, you just have to remind yourself you do not know what you're dealing with within this problem.

498
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:48,220
And so the alternative hypotheses that you can turn to are exotic, bizarre hypotheses,

499
00:53:48,220 --> 00:53:51,300
much more bizarre than the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

500
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:53,300
Such things as time travel.

501
00:53:53,300 --> 00:53:57,700
And I've heard scientists seriously propose that these things come from a different time.

502
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:00,660
This is my way of thinking utter science fiction.

503
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:05,820
It defies well realistic principles that are pretty solidly embedded in physics now,

504
00:54:05,820 --> 00:54:08,580
already resting on the speed of light limit.

505
00:54:08,580 --> 00:54:13,060
I don't think time travel is anything more than a well in the fiction.

506
00:54:13,060 --> 00:54:20,780
I can be sure that what I do feel strongly about feel strongly about is that's more bizarre than extraterrestrial visitation.

507
00:54:20,780 --> 00:54:26,540
Then there is the possibility and this has to be given passing thought that there is.

508
00:54:26,580 --> 00:54:28,180
I've heard a good scientist say this.

509
00:54:28,180 --> 00:54:32,700
I guess I won't quote him because I regard it pretty nonsensical myself that there may be,

510
00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:39,460
listen carefully, another civilization on this planet that the are terrestrial and that there is another civilization.

511
00:54:39,460 --> 00:54:40,260
But where are the dickens?

512
00:54:40,260 --> 00:54:42,260
Is it? You know, I mean, how could this?

513
00:54:42,260 --> 00:54:46,580
This strikes me as a fanciful in the worst sense.

514
00:54:46,580 --> 00:54:52,820
One thing I've given myself a little bit in this spot by thinking about the submarine problem.

515
00:54:52,820 --> 00:55:00,420
I don't want to start off on that, but there are more than a few examples of unidentified objects being seen by very good observers coming out of the ocean.

516
00:55:00,420 --> 00:55:03,740
And you could say, well, that's a good place to hide.

517
00:55:03,740 --> 00:55:04,620
I don't think so.

518
00:55:04,620 --> 00:55:06,860
I don't think maybe a good place to hide.

519
00:55:06,860 --> 00:55:12,380
We don't know much about the ocean, but it's a very poor place to evolve and advance technology.

520
00:55:12,380 --> 00:55:15,820
How do you go through the combustion and flame phase?

521
00:55:15,820 --> 00:55:16,940
You know, and you're in and develop.

522
00:55:16,940 --> 00:55:17,820
And what is that?

523
00:55:17,820 --> 00:55:20,420
And this is just not a success to think that there is.

524
00:55:20,540 --> 00:55:21,020
I think so.

525
00:55:21,020 --> 00:55:34,580
I think it's it's far more improbable than the extraterrestrial hypothesis, even though I fully agree that in 1967, with the most far fetched ideas for propulsion, no matter

526
00:55:34,580 --> 00:55:47,740
not even whether that matter, the sort of things Mark, which did quite competently discuss and which others have equally competently discussed before, doesn't even begin to explain how you get in a decent interval of time from 10 light years out to here.

527
00:55:48,740 --> 00:55:57,540
But so what, you know, maybe a decent interval of time has very different kind of all kinds of things that can be said, but it's it's waste of time to speculate.

528
00:55:57,540 --> 00:56:07,740
Why say, as I can easily say, maybe the lifespan of the of the beings somewhere out there is 500 years so that a 25 year round trip is nothing at all.

529
00:56:07,740 --> 00:56:09,540
But I say that I don't know what I'm talking about.

530
00:56:09,540 --> 00:56:16,820
So I might as well not say what can be said is that there may well be technology so far, far beyond ours.

531
00:56:16,900 --> 00:56:29,500
Able to do things with exploitation of our present knowledge plus knowledge we haven't even begun to dream about that things that look utterly inexplicable to us, maybe run on old stuff to someone else.

532
00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:35,020
And such a technology may be having a look at us also may not be.

533
00:56:35,020 --> 00:56:45,580
But if there is even a chance of that, if we're there's a chance that we're under surveillance, is there a person in this room who would suggest that so what is the response?

534
00:56:45,580 --> 00:56:46,700
Who cares?

535
00:56:46,700 --> 00:56:51,420
I hope not. I've heard one or two people in my months of talking or one or two people say that.

536
00:56:51,420 --> 00:56:58,020
But I regard that as essentially a subhuman response to such a suggestion.

537
00:56:58,020 --> 00:57:01,020
He says nonsense. That's a different thing for saying who cares.

538
00:57:01,020 --> 00:57:09,340
And he would be not not not worthy of a human species to say, certainly we're curious, even if the UFO things aren't.

539
00:57:09,380 --> 00:57:21,860
But this this problem is so much more involved than I can possibly discuss in the hour I have now taken that I won't want to attempt to offer deliver hypotheses,

540
00:57:21,860 --> 00:57:36,780
except to say that having looked at all of these as carefully as I can, I'm inclined to think that that's the most satisfactory hypothesis that I can now make that the world is under surveillance of some sort.

541
00:57:36,780 --> 00:57:48,060
There are just too many examples. I haven't I haven't discussed car stopping cases and car pursuit cases, aircraft pacing, train pacing, like the case in the Monong Railroad 1961, October 3rd or something.

542
00:57:48,060 --> 00:57:57,140
In 1958, where for 70 minutes freight train was paced by foregoing objects, talk all three of the trainmen who were involved in this case.

543
00:57:57,140 --> 00:58:03,980
That suggests surveillance. And so does the Portage County case and so do hundreds of others.

544
00:58:03,980 --> 00:58:17,420
And they say, why no contact? Well, last July 27th, three persons in Newton, New Hampshire were out looking at the stars when a small point of light suddenly became a rather large luminous source.

545
00:58:17,420 --> 00:58:23,380
The other fellows had a flashlight. He blinked first three times and got an immediate response three times.

546
00:58:23,380 --> 00:58:32,340
And before this object had made seven or eight passes over them, they had varied the blink frequency and every time got back in response from this object.

547
00:58:32,340 --> 00:58:37,980
They got very curious about this and watched some more and about a month and a half later, a near repetition of this.

548
00:58:37,980 --> 00:58:46,420
They had better optics within that time. And one of the gentlemen who was employed at Avco, I was on the phone with him about a week ago, said this thing filled the whole binocular field.

549
00:58:46,420 --> 00:58:54,580
It was so large. It was a dome disc where they banned of luminosity around the middle of it and free bright lights with a red light on the top.

550
00:58:54,580 --> 00:58:59,180
This time it only made three passes over them. But they again blinked and they again got response.

551
00:58:59,180 --> 00:59:02,700
When I was in Australia, I talked to three men who'd been kangaroo hunting.

552
00:59:02,700 --> 00:59:06,820
One of them had a spotlight. They use spotlights, a very brutal way of hunting. They call it spotlighting.

553
00:59:06,820 --> 00:59:15,340
And one of the fellows had given some more and he flicked the lights on and they got out of the hurry when he got the same signals back from this object.

554
00:59:15,340 --> 00:59:20,940
There was a pilot named Gene Miller who was flying in California were banning the same thing was landing lights.

555
00:59:20,940 --> 00:59:24,100
So there are some other examples, not huge numbers of these.

556
00:59:24,180 --> 00:59:32,180
But in the UFO cases, there are indications of quote contact, not very many and strange in its nature frequently.

557
00:59:32,180 --> 00:59:35,100
More often suggesting evasion and contact.

558
00:59:35,100 --> 00:59:38,260
But don't ask me to rationalize that in any terms.

559
00:59:38,260 --> 00:59:48,580
It would be, I think, utterly fallacious in the deepest sense to suggest that my logic or my psychology must apply to some sense of being from somewhere else.

560
00:59:48,580 --> 00:59:53,740
If you don't agree with that, if you are one who thinks we can reduce this to principles of curiosity and the like,

561
00:59:53,780 --> 00:59:58,580
I'd like to argue with you at length about where do you think we will be 2000 years from now?

562
00:59:58,580 --> 01:00:03,500
Not just in the things we drive around, but in our attitudes towards many kinds of problems.

563
01:00:03,500 --> 01:00:07,620
Haven't we changed our anthropological outlook on primitive races in 200 years?

564
01:00:07,620 --> 01:00:12,620
Look what happened to the Tasmanians in 70. There is not a Tasmanian left. We would not do that in 1960.

565
01:00:12,620 --> 01:00:17,820
We wouldn't eradicate what we wouldn't do to the. Well, we have changed.

566
01:00:17,820 --> 01:00:22,700
We're improving somewhat. We are improving somewhat. The current is rising.

567
01:00:22,740 --> 01:00:35,700
So it would be it would be fallacious, I think, to make strong insistences that this and that type of human response must be expected by some surveillance system from elsewhere.

568
01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:38,820
And if it doesn't exhibit that, it can't be. It doesn't exist.

569
01:00:38,820 --> 01:00:47,380
Have a look at the UFO evidence. Look at some of the evidence amassed by groups in this state and the nightcap and app or in various others.

570
01:00:47,380 --> 01:00:52,700
And then compare that with what the Air Force has done and go out and start checking these cases yourself.

571
01:00:52,700 --> 01:01:00,540
And you will probably be, as I now am, appalled at the 20 years of misinformation.

572
01:01:17,580 --> 01:01:28,100
Thank you, Dr. MacDonald, for a very informative and thought provoking talk.

573
01:01:28,100 --> 01:01:33,860
Dr. MacDonald is now presented to answer some questions if members of the audience would care to ask them.

574
01:01:48,020 --> 01:01:55,580
Yes, I've been in touch with the Colorado people right along and know a fair amount about what's going on there.

575
01:01:55,580 --> 01:02:02,780
I am delighted that a group within the University of Science body has been put on to this problem.

576
01:02:02,780 --> 01:02:10,060
I wish it had been by some agency other than the United States Air Force for reasons that I spelled out very clear to clearly the Dr.

577
01:02:10,060 --> 01:02:12,620
MacDonald, but need an elaborate here.

578
01:02:12,620 --> 01:02:17,820
I'm hopeful that they will begin to sort the problem out.

579
01:02:17,820 --> 01:02:27,300
I would be happier if they had made more vigorous progress in many directions than they have.

580
01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:36,020
And I wish they had more scientific competence, total competence in terms of man hours and fields and so on than they have.

581
01:02:36,020 --> 01:02:44,820
I have said to Air Force people there will be much more money in this and they have gotten some more money and perhaps partly as a result of my saying that for other reasons.

582
01:02:44,820 --> 01:02:48,500
But I am.

583
01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:56,620
I think that the people who really are pushing long passes are people down at the level of the investigating group that are out talking to the witnesses.

584
01:02:56,620 --> 01:02:58,020
That's what you have to do.

585
01:02:58,020 --> 01:03:01,780
We have no idea how salutary and important it is to go talk to some witnesses.

586
01:03:01,780 --> 01:03:06,460
Unfortunately, Dr. Condon, for example, is not doing any of this, but he is.

587
01:03:06,460 --> 01:03:08,340
I am in.

588
01:03:08,340 --> 01:03:14,180
I want to be careful how I put this last time somehow overstepped the bounds of courtesy.

589
01:03:14,180 --> 01:03:26,300
His interest appears to be focused on the crackpot fringe in a way that I think is a waste of time because the crackpot fringe is is a noise in the total signal.

590
01:03:26,300 --> 01:03:29,140
But sometimes you have trouble filtering noise and then it's bad.

591
01:03:29,180 --> 01:03:31,620
Folks and frauds are hard to sort out.

592
01:03:31,620 --> 01:03:38,420
But the crackpot's to be five minutes with a crack and I believe I have spotted them every time the same with anybody else.

593
01:03:38,420 --> 01:03:44,940
So to to talk as Dr. Condon did about a week ago, it's at 13th September.

594
01:03:44,940 --> 01:03:54,580
First major talk is giving any scientific group at the Indian National Bureau of Standards spectroscopy symposium, international symposium, 150 to 200 good scientists there.

595
01:03:54,620 --> 01:04:03,340
And the entire evening talking only about crackpots and leaving many of those scientists with a feeling that that's all Colorado is encountering is worrisome to me.

596
01:04:03,340 --> 01:04:09,820
And I have recently communicated that feeling to one of the people.

597
01:04:09,820 --> 01:04:13,500
I'm just hopeful.

598
01:04:13,500 --> 01:04:17,540
I'd like to ask you, please.

599
01:04:17,540 --> 01:04:38,540
I'd like to know your thoughts on power failure associated with you throughout the world as part day and part B to you associate beautiful presence with any of the, you know, mineral sources in the earth or any other reason for them coming in the areas they do.

600
01:04:38,540 --> 01:04:43,100
Well, let me briefly answer the second one because I can get that one.

601
01:04:43,220 --> 01:04:52,340
Forget the second question. I don't see any overwhelming indication that the UFOs are paying attention to mineral deposits.

602
01:04:52,340 --> 01:04:57,540
There are some cases and one that exemplifies the point that probably simulates a question.

603
01:04:57,540 --> 01:05:03,060
There have been quite a few in the uranium district of Southwestern Colorado and there are other examples of that.

604
01:05:03,060 --> 01:05:08,340
But you have to be very careful about jumping too quickly to those kind of conclusions.

605
01:05:08,340 --> 01:05:11,900
And I present me be wrong. I may change my my notions on that.

606
01:05:11,900 --> 01:05:17,300
But I don't see enough of that to to be terribly struck by that.

607
01:05:17,300 --> 01:05:22,020
The first question is more requires a more elaborate answer.

608
01:05:22,020 --> 01:05:25,940
And this is the one part of the entire UFO problem.

609
01:05:25,940 --> 01:05:31,780
Mr. Dix has asked me about this at the dinner at the Seabing and I took care to answer quite carefully.

610
01:05:31,780 --> 01:05:42,980
And I'll try now to answer carefully. There are too many instances of UFO observations over power facilities and a smaller number,

611
01:05:42,980 --> 01:05:50,220
but too many instances of outages coincident there with for me to be happy about that.

612
01:05:50,220 --> 01:06:00,260
I think that is the one place where you might argue that there is more than just scientific curiosity reasons for getting at this problem.

613
01:06:00,260 --> 01:06:06,140
I hope that that doesn't strike you as having pressed a panic button because if that did, I'm pressed the button.

614
01:06:06,140 --> 01:06:12,220
I just say the coincidences are a little too many to to to the casualty.

615
01:06:12,220 --> 01:06:20,380
The there are about a dozen cases of which I know where system outages occurred coincidental with the UFO.

616
01:06:20,380 --> 01:06:27,780
Some of these are on a very small scale. An incident where a single house, two instance, I know where the power in a single house.

617
01:06:27,780 --> 01:06:32,340
Now, there are ways of talking about that in terms of magnetic effects.

618
01:06:32,340 --> 01:06:39,220
This is there are ways of talking about not necessarily explaining, but making a little bit of sense about the far more numerous cases of car stop.

619
01:06:39,220 --> 01:06:44,540
The division failures. And this is this is very common occurrence, well, to be speaking.

620
01:06:44,540 --> 01:06:54,020
But even in the New York outage of November 1965, there were many UFO reports, just too many to treat it casually.

621
01:06:54,020 --> 01:06:57,660
Some of them in Manhattan. I've interviewed witnesses, some of those.

622
01:06:57,660 --> 01:07:03,180
So when I went to the Federal Power Commission to try to get a full story on this, take a little long.

623
01:07:03,180 --> 01:07:15,220
I don't want to elaborate this answer. But again, I was very surprised that the fact you can get any information on outages because the private authorities don't want to report outages to the FPC.

624
01:07:15,220 --> 01:07:23,980
So I want to make a probability computation. How frequently do outages occur versus how frequently you have seen one of the product probabilities here of these being for tourists.

625
01:07:23,980 --> 01:07:28,300
And you can't get the FB have better data on you. FPC has on outages.

626
01:07:28,300 --> 01:07:32,860
Well, a law has been passed to change that, by the way.

627
01:07:32,860 --> 01:07:35,900
And so that may be better 10 years from now.

628
01:07:35,900 --> 01:07:49,140
But I also asked the FPC details about the how QB 29 relay went out at the Adam Beck plant and exactly what kind of quantitative information they had in their files on the oscilloscope traces and so on.

629
01:07:49,180 --> 01:07:56,660
Concerning the statistics of the pre outage fluctuations, if you know what I was talking about, these were the engineers that had prepared the report.

630
01:07:56,660 --> 01:08:12,540
And I finally explained what my objective was to to make a rough probability estimate again of whether the difference between the firing threshold of that notorious relay and the mean mega wattage on that line prior to fluctuation,

631
01:08:12,540 --> 01:08:21,140
whether that difference was several standard deviations or five hundred standard deviations away from the mean square fluctuations.

632
01:08:21,140 --> 01:08:24,940
So I actually explained that the final answer is we don't have any data like that.

633
01:08:24,940 --> 01:08:30,700
The obvious question is how did you explain to the president of the United States that that was a random line fluctuation?

634
01:08:30,700 --> 01:08:37,900
Well, these problems are kind of afraid of not getting very high caliber attention.

635
01:08:37,900 --> 01:08:43,780
And if there had not been so many of these cases, I would not be making these remarks here.

636
01:08:43,780 --> 01:08:47,580
But there have been just too many of these to take casually.

637
01:08:47,580 --> 01:08:49,060
And I should be talking tomorrow.

638
01:08:49,060 --> 01:08:55,380
I'm watching House laboratories about certain aspects of all transformers and other things work with specific reference to this problem.

639
01:08:55,380 --> 01:08:58,460
I don't get any bad answers about that.

640
01:08:58,460 --> 01:09:02,940
I think we ought to look into because there is such a wide range.

641
01:09:03,100 --> 01:09:05,380
Let me just wind it up such a wide range.

642
01:09:05,380 --> 01:09:11,860
I've only been in the end of here of electromagnetic disturbances in general radio,

643
01:09:11,860 --> 01:09:15,900
magnetic metric TV, many other things.

644
01:09:15,900 --> 01:09:26,940
Watches stop and so on power disturbances that you do not find it utterly absurd to think that maybe occasionally system outages are caused by this.

645
01:09:26,940 --> 01:09:30,780
Now, again, to pull back on that button.

646
01:09:30,820 --> 01:09:38,700
Suppose you're walking out at the Akron Canton Airport out on the strip and there is a is a banana, let's say a piper cub.

647
01:09:38,700 --> 01:09:45,140
And you don't realize that the propeller is rotating and you walk through that propeller.

648
01:09:45,140 --> 01:09:46,980
Was that paper cub hostile to you?

649
01:09:46,980 --> 01:09:53,980
Well, of course not. And when you walk down the street and you kick an ad heel and it's it's curtains for 50 ants.

650
01:09:53,980 --> 01:09:57,380
Were you hostile to him? No, no, not necessarily.